Noobtubes

[DeadCamper]

As we all know Noobtubes, a.k.a. grenade launchers, have always been a major problem in most if not all CoD games. Call them over powered, skill equalizers, cheap, whatever, if they have a strong/wide enough splash damage they are very easy to get kills with.

In what games other than CoD do you guys and gal concider (<-- I always spell it with a second "c" for some reason...) noobtubes to be over powered or annoying? It has to be a multiplayer game of course, but other than that anything basically goes, first person, third person, whatever.

Bonus question(s); Even though grenade launchers are common in real life wars, do you think removing them from online play would heighten the fun factor? "Balance/fun > realism" and all that.
And why do you think developers insist on including them in their games even though people hate them so much? Is noob friendly weaponry good for sales perhaps?

[Felixlynch777]

I think it depends on the game. If it's a mil sim like ARMA then I think realism>balance. Real war isn't balanced. In a arcadey series like BF they've been an issue though. Even in BF2 they were nerfed after a lot of complaining. I've always thought this as well about noob tubes. They were banned on nearly every COD4 server I played on.

[Jammer]

Noobtubes are just crutches for bad players. Even if they're not in the game or they aren't great, bad players will probably have some other crutch. Of course, the crutch may simply be the easiest weapon to use rather than an actual op'd weapon (so for example, if BF3 didn't have the m26 issue and other such things, m16 could be as it's probably one of the easiest guns to use)

[DeadCamper]

Yes, but I don't think the "if you remove one OP weapon another will just take its place"-argument can be applied to noobtubes. They're in a class of their own, and pose a problem in almost every MP game ever made, it's their unique nature.

They're hard to counter. If someone shoots at you with a powerful/OP firearm then at least you can shoot back and maybe still win if you're good, whereas a noobtube can wipe out several people before they have a chance to react. A skill equalizer.

Also, they aren't your primary, but commonly attached to an assault rifle, so you get whatever AR you want, perhaps an "OP" one, and a noobtube on top of that.

Explosives are hard to balance, on one hand they can easily become cheap, but you can't really nerf damage too much either as it IS a fucking explosive.

I think another point/problem to take into consideration is that most if not all explosives in games are meant for taking out vehicles or buildings, like RPGs and C4, that's their primary role. But a grenade launcher is actually meant for combating infantry. Most of the time they're useless against tanks and even light vehicles, so the only reason to equip them is to wipe out infantry without much of an effort.

If a developer decided to only let people fire, say, smoke grenades from underbarrel launchers then I think that might make for interesting gameplay. People could still have their hand grenades of course.

[Omnirock]

i don't die from noobtubes enough for them to be personally a problem (dat ego). however, i do see how they are used in a way that would frustrate other players, and get some easy kills.

i think the big problem is with being able to replenish them quickly with an ammo kit nearby (or scavenger a la CoD), and the fact that the average lifespan in games like these isn't particularly long... so you never feel like you need to conserve them for when they are actually needed.

don't really want to see them taken out of the game, or even have the damage reduced (it's an explosive device, it should kill you). but i think certain weapons ammo sources should be in limited supply or have some kind of timer until they can become active again (think of it as having logistics having to move forward the supply line, takes time). Of course something like this would probably not work, but it's an idea...

That or have the CS way of doing things, and give us cash each round to load our kits out, and once you use up what's on ya, that's it...

[DeadCamper]

Those are some good points, that a grenade should be "pricier" than a bullet (even if the game doesn't have an actual cash system).

I didn't really want to go there, but no, I don't die from them often either. This topic didn't spring from a personal problem with noobtubes. I just recognize that they pose a problem and it's nothing personal, I want to discuss it because I think it's interesting.

Interestingly enough, noobtubes were hardly a big problem in BC2. But you could argue that they were way too weak instead.

[RatedStinger]

Noobtubes were way too weak in BC2. The kill radius, which was already quite reasonable, was cut in half in one of the patches without explanation and could only be partially remedied if you use the Explosive Damage spec. Although this is nothing compared to the laughably bad BC1 M203 which basically needed a direct impact to kill in one shot.

Outside of CoD4 and MW2, the only game I can really see an overpowered/broken noobtube was Combat Arms. Although Combat Arms took it further by not giving the players an M203, but an M32/MGL so you get 6 shots on full-auto instead of the usual 2/3. Although they weren't the mini-nukes seen in MW2, the M32/MGL could easily give ANYBODY three kills(more if you found a "sewing circle"). Worst of all was how the weapon required a ridiculously high rank to unlock(about equal to Colonel 50-60 in BF3), or you could just pay $8 and get it without rank restrictions.

[DeadCamper]

I played some Killzone 2 bot matches today and it reminded me of how dumb I thought the Assault class was.
You get the extra armor/speed boost thing, sure, but your primary is either a M327 Grenade Launcher or a Rocket Launcher. You don't get any kind of assault rifle, just a pistol and either of those explosive weapons. And of course very limited ammo. That's just begging people to not care if they die, just activate your armor/speed boost, run in, blow the place up, die, repeat.

Ah yes, who could forget the Radec Academy rocket cluster fucks. You literally spawned in and saw rockets and grenades darkening the air around you.

[RatedStinger]

Ah yes, the Killzone 2 Assault class. One of the reasons why I hated Radec Academy so much, and now I get to relive it again with the very similar Doyan Fortress in the upcoming CQC pack for BF3(if my friend is still getting it since I'm gamesharing for this one).

[Valerie]

I'm a noob, so I don't conapplecider them to be noobtubes, but instead portable-door-makers. Plus, the Twumpuh in BC2:Vietnam made the coolest weapon sound evah.

[DeadCamper]

Yeah, I don't think I've ever exclaimed "Fucking noobtuber!" in BC2, and certainly not in Vietnam. They only thing they were good for was taking out walls, maybe hurting the camper on the other side. So many times you'd launch a grenade into the midst of a group of enemies and NOTHING.

Not saying that's a good solution either, they weren't used that often because of it. But yeah, can you imagine what the already frustrating Arica matches would've been like if noobtubes worked like in CoD. >_>

[RatedStinger]

Metro 64 with MW2 noobtube = 12-man+ killfeeds

[Felixlynch777]

This topic brings me on to another point though. Does anyone else agree that too much balance is a bad thing? I kind of think some things should be better than others, otherwise the guns are all just the same with different textures. Apart from the M60 at launch and the Carl Gustav I really didn't think anything else was drastically OPed in BC2. USAS/SAIGA is obnoxious but not gamebreaking territory. I'm kind of sad that the complaining about shotguns/slugs have led to the BF3 shotguns being a little underpowered (IMO) now. There seems to be a "NERF DIS" kind of culture prevalent in FPS games which I never got.

I will actually commend MW3 in a way in that the balancing is a bit deeper than BF3. I always thought the simplest solution to apparent issue with PDWs being too weak is to make different classes have different ADS/Sprinting speeds. Like in MW3 you run fastest with an SMG and slowest with an LMG. Give the PDWs the fastest sprinting speed and ADS time. It makes sense, how can you aim a pistol the same speed as an LMG.

And yes KZ2 was a fantastic game but it was pretty spammy. The nades were even worse, so damn powerful.

[Scorex_VII]

In all my BC2 hours i never found the Gustav to be OP...Before the patch you could count with one hand the times i have been killed with it...

[DeadCamper]

That's actually true for me too. I never saw the King of Sweden as a problem, I guess I was lucky because everyone and their mother seemed to hate it on gfaqs.

I also think that there's a psychosomatic effect to a weapon becoming known as OP. I think rumor starts to spread and a lot of noobs start to use that gun in hopes of succeeding. That could be why you saw AN94's all over the place. Sure, it was a poweful gun, but over-hyped.

[Felixlynch777]

IDK, I do recall the CG having an insane blast radius at launch.

Yeah the AN94 wasn't much, it had some pretty bad iron sights.

[RatedStinger]

Having experience with both the Carl Gustav and the AN-94 before and after each weapon got double nerfed, I'll say this:

The Carl Gustav unpatched could brain fart a double kill if you even saw someone in your crosshairs. People(myself included) used to rocket snipe with it because the blast radius was so large you could clip a wookie in the legs and still kill him. Now don't get the wrong idea, this is still nowhere close to the bullshit mini-nuke CoD4/MW2/MW2.1 has, but you'd have to be crazy to say it wasn't OP.

After the nerfs, it could still get infantry kills without much difficulty, but brain farting a double kill was not likely unless you put the Explosive spec on which basically remedied the nerf. Although rocket sniping is much harder to do even with the Explosive spec on. Then again, one of the two nerfs lowered the Gustav's trajectory speed so it actually curved when you tried to shoot at long-range.

As for the AN-94, pre-patch it was basically the M60's retarded cousin. Had all the things that made the M60 OP except for the ammo capacity. Although I found that it was better suited with Marksman instead of Magnum because it made the gun laser-accurate.

The first nerf was needed, as the damage was too high so it forced people to choose between power or accuracy. The second, which I felt was not necessary, turned it into a malfunctioning M16A2 since this nerf made lower recoil the only edge the AN-94 had against the M16A2.

[DeadCamper]

I think, though, that many of us here are of the opinion that it's ok for some guns to be more powerful than others in some aspects. One might rage over it occasionally, but it also makes the game a little more interesting. The constant nerfs that put every gun on the exact same level, just with different skins, are insanely boring.
Now if the balancing was deeper, like Felix said, with different ADS speeds and character movement speeds, then that would add even more to it.

Yes, on one hand it's annoying that a beginner can get easy double kills with a rocket launchers, but it does shoot goddamn rockets, feels stupid to nerf it too much. But the trajectory nerf was nice.

As for the AN94, I used to like to "rage" over it, jokingly blamed it for my deaths sometime to vent my frustration, but in the end I didn't have a problem with it. I had almost no kills with it, but the day they finally nerfed it completely it felt sad lol. The legendary gun you could blame for all your misfortunes was gone. :/

[Scorex_VII]

I got my plat on the Gustav before the nerf, and it didnt felt OP... It felt that was doing its job. I played BC2 a lot, even before the Gustav nerf, and i might say i never had problems with it, never... Not sure where the hell people were playing then lol.

[Biggles]

I'LL SHOW YOU A NOOB TUBE WINK WINK

[DeadCamper]

Biggles likes virgi-... noobs.

[Felixlynch777]

Biggles is a noob tuber. He spams and hopes for the best. I'm more of a TV missile kind of guy. Incredibly precise, accurate and powerful and with a tendency to blow up pre-maturely and cause friendly damage. /stupid joke

I do have quite a lot of noob tube kills in BF3. Being crammed like sardines in the majority of maps and with everyone and their mother playing Assault makes it easy. My personal best is 6 guys with one shot on Seine Crossing.

[Sponsored content]